It’s time to get real about websites. In our second episode, we break down everything from cost and content to functionality and accessibility. We also uncover discoveries from a recent digital conference, analyze a perspective-changing ad, and give our take on the state of TikTok.

The conversation doesn't end here! Find us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn, sign up for our newsletter, or send us an email at: info@thinkdenovo.com with the subject "Dear de Novo." 

Links and References:

AskYourTargetMarket.com

Transcript for Podcast Episode 2

Dollars and Sense: Getting Real About Websites

TRANSCRIPT 

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;20;15

RYAN

We're doing this. All right. Hello and welcome to the world of talking. my God. All right, we'll try this again. Ryan, are you settled? Okay.

00;00;20;17 - 00;00;41;05

JEN

Hello and welcome to Think Fresh, a podcast brought to you by Novo Marketing’s Collective Creative. Coming to you from our Ideas Institute and here to talk about all things marketing. Insights on new trends, innovative ideas, and marketing tools you can use in your day-to-day life… and whatever else we deem relevant. I'm Jen Neumann, de Novo CEO and your host.

00;00;41;08 - 00;01;09;24

RYAN

And I'm Ryan Shenefelt, Account Manager, Innovation & Education Lead, and resident Nosy Eavesdropper always looking to push the envelope.

JEN

 He is indeed very, very nosy. 

RYAN

Today we're talking all things websites. 

RYAN

Well, Jen, even before we get into the docket for today, we recorded our first podcast. 

JEN

We did. We got it done. It was absolutely terrifying. And when our producer sent the first draft over, I was so scared to listen to it.

00;01;09;24 - 00;01;27;02

JEN

But it actually it was great. I'm really happy with it.

RYAN

I subscribed to the podcast myself, which feels kind of weird. But on Saturday I was doing some chores and when one of my other podcasts ended, all of a sudden I started hearing myself talking and it kind of weirded me out briefly. But then I got used to it.

00;01;27;03 - 00;01;46;21

JEN

How many times did you make Jacob listen to it?

RYAN

 Zero zero. He actually doesn't even know about it yet. I don't think. However, because he's not on social media, so he doesn't see me sharing it all over the place. But I have had a few clients reach out and a few friends and even a student reach out saying that they listened and that it was great.

00;01;46;21 - 00;02;08;12

RYAN

So that definitely makes me feel more confident about this.

JEN

Yeah. And that students going to get a slightly higher grade, is that what you're saying? 

RYAN

Of course. Of course. Shout out Tiffany, Shout out Tiffany. 

JEN

All right, all right. Let's get let's get down to websites. And this is a… this is a tricky topic sometimes. 

RYAN

Yeah. So with websites, I think that they've evolved so much over the past 30 years.

00;02;08;12 - 00;02;33;10

RYAN

It used to be only governments, large corporations, they can have the websites. Then as website builder tools came out, it made it a little bit easier for other companies to join the fray. Now, websites aren't a pure badge of legitimacy. There are plenty of… bad websites out there. Not just bad in the sense that they look bad, but scammers, spammers, all of that.

00;02;33;10 - 00;02;58;01

RYAN

They have the ability to create a website and look legitimate because the average person assumes, “Oh, if it's a website, it's real.” And I just get worried about that because we've had clients that have had their pictures used on other websites. My mom has purchased.. or my mom's coworker has purchased, like, fake things off of websites where she, she Googled and saw something that was $5 cheaper on this scam website.

00;02;58;01 - 00;03;32;20

RYAN

She put her credit card in and never got the product. So…

JEN

 I may have been guilty of that too. 

RYAN

Yeah. Yeah, it happens. It happens. But let's let's not talk about those websites. Let's talk about good websites, websites that serve the purpose of your business.

JEN

Right. And websites are they're a major part of what we do here. And it's interesting to me when I start a conversation with somebody who's looking for a website, build what they know, what they don't know, what they… what they think they know, and some of the misperceptions and myths that are out there around website building.

00;03;32;23 - 00;03;59;25

JEN

And we're going to focus strictly on business case websites today, not necessarily on lifestyle websites and things like that. We're talking about everyday businesses or organizations and communities. So it's really important that you have a professional face, facing forward, right? Your website is usually your first point of contact with a customer or a constituent, whatever it might be.

00;03;59;25 - 00;04;22;28

JEN

So it has to be good. It has to be good, but it also has to be a lot of other things. It has to be accessible. It has to be safe for them to enter their information, and it has to drive your goals, whatever that is. So we're going to break down some of that and we're going to start with the most uncomfortable one for most people, which is “What does it actually cost?”

00;04;23;01 - 00;04;43;01

RYAN

Right? And even before we have many conversations with our clients and with other people, they will ask, what does the website cost? So again, what does a website actually cost? 

JEN

I'm going to cop out here to be honest, because if I say a low number and a high number, what anybody hears is the low number.

00;04;43;03 - 00;05;05;10

RYAN

Of course. 

JEN

So it can vary. But I think that the misperception that a website is like eight or $10,000 is just it's kind of still out there. And really to completely build a site out, to make it secure, to make it accessible, to make it meet your business goals, it's way more of an investment than that. So that's probably the first thing I get.

00;05;05;10 - 00;05;30;08

JEN

And where, you know, when I'm on a call with somebody, I see a deer in the headlights look. But the fact of the matter is, is it takes time and resources to do it right. But it will absolutely pay off for you if you do it right and you build it, build it correctly from the foundation up. 

RYAN

And what you were saying, your website is one of the first things that people see. If they are doing Google searches, if you email them, they might go to your website to just check you out.

00;05;30;10 - 00;05;54;21

RYAN

So you want to make sure that it does come off legitimate, come off professional, but still be who you are. In a nutshell, your website, your website should reflect who your business is.

JEN

Right, most businesses at one point in time had walk-in traffic. Now we have stalk-in traffic. Right? They're going to look you up before they even come to your store or call your business or make an appointment or buy from you.

00;05;54;23 - 00;06;13;07

JEN

It's a completely different approach, now. They know more about you before they step foot through your door or call you than they ever would have before. 

RYAN

I have never heard the term stalking traffic and that might be my new favorite thing. 

JEN

Well, apparently you didn't read my blog like, ten years ago. 

RYAN

Dang it.

JEN

That's where it, that's where it came from.

00;06;13;09 - 00;06;33;22

JEN

All right. So, I mean, there's a lot of there are a lot of things that go into building a site and a lot of the reasons that it's not just a $10,000 project or even less, it's just a very so it's it's important that you get that out of the way first and that businesses are budgeting for this tool.

00;06;33;24 - 00;06;53;17

RYAN

Right. When it comes to things that might change the cost of a website. Let's talk through some of those factors a little bit. The first one being: platform. Do you want it to be built on a content management system where you can easily go in and make changes yourself? Do you want it to be purely HTML coded? All of those things depend on the platform as well, can, can adjust your price

00;06;53;23 - 00;07;35;09

JEN

Yeah. And not a lot of companies are doing things on a strict HTML coding basis anymore. Really. Companies are either going to have the developers on staff for something like that and it's going to be more of a custom-coded CMS or proprietary or they're going to want to use a CMS platform and they may need some advanced coding at times, but they want to be able to make updates, you know, whether they're building it internally or whether somebody else is building the site. Your everyday user of the site… back end user of the site is not going to be that well-versed in coding.

00;07;35;09 - 00;07;56;01

JEN

So it does typically for most businesses need to be something that the client can mostly maintain on their own. 

RYAN

Yeah, and something that we hear a lot. And another factor is, is the content, both the written and the photos. Clients will say, I want the website to be a little bit cheaper. I'll write the content myself. 

JEN

Oh my God, 

RYAN

we pull it from our existing website. Right? 

00;07;56;06 - 00;08;16;04

JEN

Okay, so this is the part that kind of pisses me off sometimes because content is the number one holdup in a website. When we have a lot of people say we can just use the content from our site, or I'll write the content or our team will write the content and we'll send it to you. And we do have some that are very good at that.

00;08;16;04 - 00;08;49;20

JEN

They're staffed appropriately or they have the right experience. But website writing is not the same as regular business writing. It's different. It needs to be optimized and you need to think about that content on every page. It is the thing that slows down almost every website. So, it's something that we've incorporated now into our own structure because we have copywriters on our team, but also because a lot of times our clients have, you know, a time frame that they need this built out in.

00;08;49;23 - 00;09;13;05

JEN

And I could, if I had a dollar for every time somebody said, “We'll give you the content” and we didn't get it on time. Yeah, it's, it's crazy. But, it is the biggest holdup, and it needs to be done right. Why invest in a full fledged website if your content isn't built for that site and built to meet your goals?

00;09;13;07 - 00;09;38;13

RYAN

Right. And so if you are if you are building your website on your own, fine. But… plan accordingly for how long it takes to write the content. Researching the content, writing it well, then going back through and optimizing it. It takes longer than you think it will and I just want to make sure that everybody who's listening to this plans accordingly. Plan accordingly and then multiply that by 1.5, because that's how long it will probably actually take you.

JEN

At least.

00;09;38;16 - 00;09;56;11

RYAN

And then just talking a little bit about functionality, what are some things that you want your website to do? Do you want it to have an online chat feature in there? Do you want it to have a CRM built into your contact form? Do you need an API that goes into your ERP or e-commerce? Do you want to sell things on your website?

00;09;56;13 - 00;10;19;02

RYAN

All of those things are factors that we use when we are pricing the website. They add a little bit of complexity, sometimes a lot, a bit of complexity, but they all need to be planned for ahead of time. 

JEN

Well sometimes there's complications, right? A lot of times when we're talking to somebody in the beginning stages, they might not even know of some of the integrations that are built on.

00;10;19;04 - 00;10;37;06

JEN

Maybe they're a new CMO and they inherited a website and they don't even know what was all built into it. A lot of times we can see that just from the source code and see what we need to do, but we have had that happen where we get into that kickoff meeting and we find out from an IT person who's in the meeting that there is an integration that we didn't know about.

00;10;37;08 - 00;10;57;15

JEN

So, you know, that's just an adjustment at that point in time. But it's really best to take inventory of what your site currently does and inventory of what you want your site to do so that we can build that out appropriately. It's always starting with the end in sight. 

RYAN

Yeah. Yeah. And and not even just thinking of it in a silo.

00;10;57;15 - 00;11;18;01

RYAN

Bring in all of your stakeholders in your company and talk to them about what they want the website to do. A website can't do everything… um sometimes. Sometimes you can try. But, making sure you have everybody's wants and needs out on the table and then determine priorities. That's a way to kind of get to that end a little bit more efficiently.

00;11;18;04 - 00;11;38;27

JEN

A shift I've seen is… IT used to be in charge of websites, which drove me crazy because why would you.. would you ask IT to design a brochure for your company, right? No, you wouldn't. But IT does typically need to be involved if they have access to your domain or you know, how your site might currently be hosted.

00;11;38;27 - 00;12;08;08

JEN

So I encourage people to talk to kind of all the stakeholders within their company that may have some role in how that website operates so that you're not surprised by something later. 

RYAN

Right. Another thing to keep in mind with the price of your website or the cost of your website, the monthly traffic that you're getting. So hopefully you do have Google Analytics or some other form of analytics installed on your site so that you can see that monthly traffic.

00;12;08;08 - 00;12;29;01

RYAN

That comes into play when we talk about hosting. Hosting is not the same price for a website that gets ten visits a month versus a website that gets 200,000 visits a month. A website has to be scaled up effectively for things like that. And it doesn't necessarily always change the look of your website, but the feel of your website, how fast it's operating.

00;12;29;03 - 00;12;54;16

RYAN

More traffic means you need you need a more powerful website host. 

JEN

I think we should talk about timing too, because that's something that I think people just aren't even sure of when they reach out to us. They want to know how long it'll take. So, you know, a basic site could take as little as four months and a much more complex site could take up to a year, even more in some cases, depending on the complexity of the site.

00;12;54;18 - 00;13;15;29

JEN

So it's really important to think about that. And that all rolls into what a website will cost you to have it professionally built as well. So it's just something to keep in mind. Sure, you can throw up a cheap DIY website in a matter of a week if you want, but will it be strategically thought through from beginning to end?

00;13;15;29 - 00;13;37;03

JEN

Will it have the layers of security that you need? Will it be ADA accessible? Which we're going to touch on here in a moment, and why that's important. Having a strategic partner that can think this through for you and has the experience to build it out technically correct while having your marketing and revenue goals in mind, that's key.

00;13;37;05 - 00;13;55;22

RYAN

Yeah. If it's just one person putting information into a preexisting template, you're only thinking…

JEN

How do I fill in the blanks? Right?

RYAN

Right. And you're trying to fill in the blanks. You're not creating it. You've got a hole and you're trying to fill it. So remember, you're not your target market. That's something that we tell our clients.

00;13;55;22 - 00;14;19;25

RYAN

We have to remember that ourselves sometimes, but that's part of our process of working with the clients, reminding them, pushing back sometimes, and just reminding them “Hey, you're not your target market. This website is to help serve your business goals, but the website is not just for you.” Keep your target market in mind when creating that. So long story short Jen, when it comes to how much a website costs…

JEN

I don't know.

00;14;19;27 - 00;14;41;20

JEN

You got to give me the details. You’ve got to give me the details. We’ve got to know everything. So just don't come into the conversation thinking that it's, you know, ranging from a couple hundred bucks to a couple thousand. It all depends on your business’ needs. So think of it as an investment and something that's going to return value to you if it's done right. 

00;14;41;27 - 00;15;09;27

RYAN

Yeah. 

JEN

So a new emerging trend that has been happening over the past, I'd say 2 to 4 years is ADA accessibility, which is not a trend in and of itself. But when it comes to websites, what's happening is, we live in a litigious society and businesses are getting what we call demand letters saying “your site is not fully accessible to me, I am suing you.”

00;15;09;27 - 00;15;43;22

JEN

And there have been some settlements, notable settlements from some bigger companies like Target, Harvard, some big ones. Right. But it's happening to smaller companies and communities, too. So ensuring that a site is built to reasonably accommodate the user is really important. So, you have to take it back to your own company’s values or community’s values like how do you make your business or your community accessible in the first place?

00;15;44;00 - 00;16;11;02

JEN

What are your values around that? And that really should inform how you build your website and then that should be built to standards. And I'm going to give that a caveat because standards are one thing, but how the government is sharing this information, they've really just posted guidelines and it's more of a you’re reporting or tattling on websites rather than they're going out and saying, “Hey, you have deficiencies in your website, you need to correct them.”

00;16;11;02 - 00;16;35;15

JEN

So that's what's leading to, I think, some scare tactics that are happening and that leads to reactive solutions, right? Like buying a program that kind of lays over your site and according to those programs makes it accessible, which is sort of… 

RYAN

It’s not always the case. 

JEN

Yeah it's not always the case and can actually cause problems for your site.

00;16;35;15 - 00;16;59;01

JEN

So starting at the point at which you're building your site, making sure that it's being built to those standards is super important, but also making sure that you're making reasonable accommodations for people and there's a way that they can reach out to you. 

RYAN

Yeah, and we know what accessibility means in a physical sense. That’s things like ramps going up to a building, automatic door functionality, etc., but not necessarily in a digital sense, right?

00;16;59;01 - 00;17;20;03

RYAN

It means something different. For a website that means making sure you have alt tags, making sure that screen readers can function on your website, really ensuring that everybody can access your website in an equitable way. That's what ADA means in a nutshell. And accessibility means in a nutshell, for your website. 

JEN

It can get more complicated than that too, right?

00;17;20;03 - 00;17;44;01

JEN

Like, part of it is screen readers and maybe being able to increase the size of the text or having an appropriate contrast ratio between colors, right? But it can also mean captions on your videos and making sure that anybody with any level of ability to consume that information can… that you've made reasonable accommodations for them. 

RYAN

Yes.

00;17;44;04 - 00;18;06;15

JEN

That is key. And disabilities come in a lot of different shapes and sizes. And how people access that information is subjective. And there are even some tools out there or some methods that you might use that actually decrease accessibility. So it's kind of a gray area and you have to tread that carefully. But the important thing is, is that you're doing it, right.

00;18;06;15 - 00;18;27;28

JEN

You're making every attempt you can to be accessible. You're not doing things that make it actually more difficult sometimes for people to access that and that you're displaying that information. You're saying we make every reasonable accommodation and if you have encountered difficulty on our site, here is how you reach out to us to see if we can correct it for you.

00;18;28;04 - 00;18;53;23

JEN

That is really key. That shows intent.

RYAN

Right. And that's your accessibility statement and your…

Your form on that. You know, and a good place for that is down by your privacy policy, which that's a whole other topic that we're not going to cover today. But these are things that you need to do to not only build the site for the end user in mind so that everybody can reach it, but also to keep yourself out of danger.

00;18;53;29 - 00;19;14;06

JEN

Right? Right. So treat accessibility like you would your own storefront or your own building or for your own employees. You have to treat your website the same way. 

RYAN

Right. And accessibility is the right thing to do. However, Google, we always have to keep in mind. Google actually has a tool to measure or grade your accessibility on your website.

00;19;14;09 - 00;19;40;21

RYAN

Google Lighthouse gives accessibility as a metric and something I always tell clients if Google is grading something, if they're taking the time to develop an algorithm that grades something, you can almost guarantee that goes into their ranking algorithm. Now, the rankings with SEO, that is a black box, we do not KNOW what goes into it, but if Google develops something, they're probably using it as a tool for grading and that goes into their algorithm. 

00;19;40;22 - 00;19;59;03

JEN

Absolutely. Okay. Ryan can't help himself and he definitely has the wiggles over here. So Ryan, go ahead and give ‘em one takeaway. If you're going to do one thing to work on the accessibility of your website, what is it? 

RYAN

Yes. If you have a CMS and you can go in and make updates to your site, you might struggle with layout.

00;19;59;03 - 00;20;19;18

RYAN

And a lot of times clients and people, they will do something in Photoshop if they can't do it in text or with code on their website that's swallowing up all of the ADA value that you would put into that. Screen readers cannot read text in graphics. Remove text from graphics, make sure that you can highlight that text and copy and paste it. 

00;20;19;20 - 00;20;51;20

RYAN

If you can copy and paste text, that means that a screen reader can read it and make sure that everybody can access that. So, no text in graphics or if it is, make sure that you have it in other places on your website, too.

JEN

All right, Prof. Ry just gave you homework everybody, so do it. 

RYAN

So yeah, when you think about it, your website’s your first interaction with the customer, they're using the website as a way to stalk, like Jen said earlier, your business. That one interaction might be the make-or-break moment and, you won't get the chance to convince them otherwise.

00;20;51;24 - 00;21;13;27

JEN

Right. If they've already made the decision based on your website versus a competitor's website and they choose your competitor and they make that purchase or decision, well you're already out of the equation. So you have to give yourself the best chance you can moving forward. And that's the crux of all this. 

00;21;14;00 - 00;21;42;22

JEN

All right. Power of three segment, right.

So we sent Ryan and the digital team to Denver last week to spend some time at the Agency Management Institute Digital Summit. It's basically the data nerds from a bunch of agencies across the United States. Give me your top three things you learned. 

RYAN

Yes. If I had to summarize those two days into just three points and like Jen said, it was a bunch of different marketing professionals specifically in that digital space.

00;21;42;22 - 00;22;06;10

RYAN

So, this group of people think roughly 45 people from 20 different agencies all throughout the United States, they came together and it was eye-opening that a lot of us share… not concerns, but we all took similar things away from it. The first one is cookies and compliance. Google is changing the way that information can be tracked on your websites a lot.

00;22;06;12 - 00;22;24;07

RYAN

So Apple, many of you might already see that when you install a new app, Apple makes you opt-in to cookie usage and things along those lines. So it's already been done with Apple. Now every single website is going to be doing the same thing and Google is going to require you to track cookies in a different way.

00;22;24;09 - 00;22;40;25

RYAN

So this means that we have to adjust how we're targeting people. It's not the end of the world. It really just is an adjustment to how tracking is done. You're not just going to be putting a a little cookie on someone's computer. You're going to be getting some more information from them in a more transparent way.

00;22;40;27 - 00;22;57;02

RYAN

So cookie policy, that's number one. 

JEN

Well, and Google said they were going to roll this out and now they've really slow-played that. So it has given digital marketers a chance to kind of get their feet under them and understand how it's changing. But I just have to echo what you said. This isn't actually the end of the world.

00;22;57;02 - 00;23;35;11

JEN

This is actually better targeting. 

RYAN

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's more authentic to your customer for sure. 

JEN

All right. What's next? What's this tool that you're talking about next? I This one was new to me. 

RYAN

Yes. Yes. Askyourtargetmarket.com. This is a tool that marketers can use to have focus groups, to vet questions, to vet designs, even. Askyour targetmarket.com is something that anybody from a consumer standpoint can sign up for to be somebody's target market, and it allows businesses and marketers to go in and say I am looking for a 35-year-old mom from the Midwest and I want 30 of those people.

00;23;35;14 - 00;23;57;24

RYAN

They then allow you to ask those people questions and those people on the other end, they're saying, “Hey, I am X, I want to answer questions for money.” So kind of a survey tool, but it really empowers the marketer to be able to get in front of those people in a more efficient way. 

JEN

So how many of those studies have you personally signed up for to participate in?

00;23;57;26 - 00;24;17;13

RYAN

UnknownI… not yet. I will be honest. I have not on the other end of things, signed up for these things yet, but it's a new tool that came around probably three or four years ago and it already has a huge user base. But I, should probably put my name in the ring because I have nothing but opinions.

JEN

Nothing but a lot of opinions.

00;24;17;15 - 00;24;37;00

JEN

So is it a free tool? Is it a paid tool? 

RYAN

It is a paid tool on both fronts. So marketers, they do have to pay in order to use it to run a test. But it also means that the consumers are also being paid. So it's not just somebody going through and making $0.17 off of answering a survey.

00;24;37;03 - 00;24;57;08

RYAN

They are making anywhere from $5 to $15 to give their opinions on ad creative, to take time to do a brief digital focus group. A lot of functionality built in to ask your target market. 

JEN

So a marketer might use it to validate some information or get a little bit deeper information on how their target market thinks about something?

00;24;57;08 - 00;25;15;23

RYAN

Yeah, both of those. If you have existing creative that already exists, you can, you can test that, you can validate it. But if you're in the beginning research stage of things as well, askyourtargetmarket.com is a great opportunity to do that. 

JEN

Yeah, it strengthens your… strengthens your creative and your approach. So that's a that's a really cool tool. What else?

00;25;15;23 - 00;25;44;03

RYAN

My last one is related to Performance Max campaigns on Google or Facebook optimized campaigns. Facebook and Google, we do have to remember that they make their money from advertising. They want every single business to be advertising, so they try to make it very easy. What we've seen with those campaigns, when advertisers are running those or when marketers are running those, we notice that it's just kind of an impression farm.

00;25;44;06 - 00;26;02;14

RYAN

It's all impression-based marketing. They help you build a campaign that gets in front of a lot of people, but it's not actually meeting the business goal. There's no conversion happening on the other end of it, so they can report back to you. “Oh my gosh, so many people saw these.” And that's great for some types of ads.

00;26;02;14 - 00;26;22;24

RYAN

But, if you do have a business goal tied to your advertising, which you should, those might not be the best bet. So Performance Max campaigns, Facebook optimized, they do make it really easy to get in front of people quickly however enter them with some caution. Make sure you know what you want to do before creating those. Don't just create an ad to create an ad.

00;26;22;27 - 00;26;41;06

RYAN

Make sure you have your goal figured out before you dive into using those pieces. 

JEN

The thing about these tools is Facebook's always going to tell you to spend more money on Facebook. Google is always going to tell you to spend more money on Google. You have your budget, you have your priorities. You make sure that it aligns with your target market and stick to that.

00;26;41;06 - 00;27;13;29

JEN

Use these as some insights, but they're not they're not necessarily the exact way you should go. 

RYAN

Exactly. 

JEN

Okay Ryan, so just give me those three. What were they real quick? 

RYAN

Yes. Cookie compliance, askyourtargetmarket.com and use Performance Max campaigns and Facebook optimized campaigns with caution. 

JEN

Alright, power three. 

So now we’re at the segment ‘Creative Briefs’ which is one of my favorite things to do is like pull apart a campaign that's out there and get to the point of it.

00;27;13;29 - 00;27;32;21

JEN

Like, what is the strategic insight that they are trying to achieve here? So we're going to talk about a video that apparently went viral kind of this last week. It’s in the show notes. You've got to watch it. In fact, I would pause this right now and go watch it, because it's going to make a lot more sense if you haven't seen it yet.

00;27;32;24 - 00;27;56;23

JEN

But, Ryan, tell us a little bit about this video. 

RYAN

Yes, this video is created by a by a nonprofit called ‘Core Down’ in partnership with about 13 other nonprofits specific to dance syndrome throughout the world. It was created by a New York agency called Small for Global Down Syndrome Day, which was on March 21st. 

JEN

And it's freaking fantastic.

00;27;56;23 - 00;28;19;21

RYAN

Yes.

JEN

If I didn't say that enough already. 

RYAN

Yes. 

It stars Canadian actress Madison Devlin. She was most recently in a movie called Champions with Woody Harrelson. The name of the campaign is called “You Assume.” And throughout this video, they use the same trope and in a few different ways, such as, “I order a margarita, but you're not sure if I can have a margarita so you don't serve me a margarita.”

00;28;19;28 - 00;28;45;26

RYAN

“So I don't drink a margarita.” And then they say “your assumption becomes reality.” They use other scenarios such as “You assume I can't live on my own, You assume I cannot hit harder, that I cannot learn Shakespeare.” But really coming back to that, your assumptions become reality. So it says, “Assume that I can do all of these things, that I can do my job, that I can go to parties, that I can be on stage, assume that I can, so maybe I will.”

00;28;46;00 - 00;29;21;19

JEN

And there's a parallel out there that some people might be familiar with. I think it goes back to like the 2012 Paralympics in London. And they were preparing to to hold the Paralympics and they did some survey work and it showed that people weren't engaged or excited about it. And really when they dug into it, they found out they weren't excited about it because they felt a little uncomfortable watching athletes who were differently abled, who had who were amputees or who had prosthetics.

00;29;21;21 - 00;29;47;21

JEN

And they really repositioned these athletes as superhumans. And that's the name of the campaign. And we'll drop that in the show notes, too. And that is just such a good example of how they humanized people, which is what this campaign that we're talking about also does. When I watched it, I was a little… it was shocking, honestly, but it did make me question my own assumptions about that and their capabilities.

00;29;47;21 - 00;30;18;04

JEN

And it really… they did a really good job using… being very edgy and being very… I just, it was artfully done. The acting is great, and authentic, for that matter. So really what they're doing is they're humanizing it and helping people. And we need a good dose of that right now in general in the world. We need to humanize other people and the conditions in which they live in to better understand it.

00;30;18;04 - 00;30;42;17

JEN

So bravo to that work. It's really wonderful. 

RYAN

Yeah. It leaves you with that, the core message. Assume I can do all of these things. Now, if I, if I were to give any critique and it wouldn't be a brief without this, this went viral. It went viral. It got millions of views, however, because there were so many different partner agencies, like I said, roughly 13, each agency shared this video on their own social media pages and on their own YouTube pages. 

00;30;42;20 - 00;31;03;14

JEN

That's a tracking nightmare. 

RYAN

Exactly! Exactly. So if you look at it, it looks like there's roughly 200,000 views on this video. But you then have to total up all of those views. You have to total up all of it.

00;31;03;17 - 00;31;27;02

RYAN

So if they could create a a single social media account that they're sharing from post it in one spot, then I think that they would get a little bit more marketing benefit from it when people are going back in and looking at it. 

JEN

Yeah, there is definitely some confusion on my end as to who created it at first too, because I saw it from one particular outlet, but like you said, there's like 13 of them.

00;31;27;04 - 00;31;49;10

JEN

So just, you know, from the back end of it, when you think about it as a marketer, how you track the success of it, that's definitely something that they'll have to do a lot of separate calculations on. 

RYAN

Right. So kind of key takeaway – people have those preconceived notions and they don't necessarily presume competency within the disability community. And we have to remember everyone's journey is different.

00;31;49;13 - 00;32;12;20

RYAN

So don't assume people can't, assume that people can. 

JEN

That ties back directly to what we were talking about earlier with websites. Don't assume that a person who has vision challenges can't use their website. Make it a website they can use. A person who has hearing challenges, make sure there are captions on your videos so they can interact with it, so they can become your customer, so they can interact with you. It all ties together.

00;32;12;21 - 00;32;39;02

JEN

Fresh Takes. So this TikTok, I'm going to I'm using air quotes here… “ban” that they're talking about in the House and Senate right now. Let's talk about what that means for users, creators and advertisers. And I'm just going to own up to the fact that I don't have TikTok on my phone because I don't really want the CCP owning my business. But Ryan, you do. What's your fresh take?

00;32;39;08 - 00;33;09;29

RYAN

Yes. Yes. Avid TikTok user. And following this, like you said Jen, “ban” relatively closely, just because I do really like the app. The Tik tok “ban”, and we're using this in air quotes. it's not a ban and we work in marketing – words matter. If the legislation does pass, which it has in the House already, it then moves into the Senate, which they're trying to declassify some information right now, just so everybody knows what the House and the Senate know about TikTok.

00;33;09;29 - 00;33;34;02

JEN

Ryan. Right now, I’m totally imagining you as that Schoolhouse Rock “I'm just a bill. Yes, I'm only a bill.” (laughter)

JEN

But with TikTok, I'm just a TikTok. 

RYAN

But if this does pass, it does not instantly mean that TikTok is banned. It then means that Bytedance, the parent company, has roughly half a year to sell TikTok to an American-based or basically a non-Chinese based company.

00;33;34;08 - 00;33;54;26

RYAN

It can be European-based, really just not China. And if they don't do that, then you won't be able to download TikTok from American-based app stores anymore. You can still access TikTok.com if you have TikTok on your phone, that would technically still work. 

JEN

It would still work but it would deprecate over time.

00;33;54;26 - 00;34;18;18

JEN

Right? Because there's no more updates. Eventually, it becomes glitchy and everything. But, you know, the reality that they're going to leave that kind of money on the table and not sell something that performs like TikTok does is pretty unlikely. But there's a lot of, there's a lot of blowback and there's a lot of creators right now who are, you know, for lack of a better term, crapping their pants.

00;34;18;18 - 00;34;37;11

JEN

Right. That's their livelihood. So what's going to happen to them kind of as this plays out, and especially if it takes a while for it to play out, what starts happening to the platform? 

RYAN

Yeah, I think that a lot of those creators are already trying to diversify their platforms. They're already trying to bridge themselves over to a meta-based platform.

00;34;37;15 - 00;35;03;16

JEN

So like Instagram, like Facebook, and also even on YouTube. So, they really stand… those social networks stand a lot to gain from this, if something does happen with TikTok.

And don't you think Meta and Google, basically YouTube and reels are just like licking their chops right now? 

RYAN

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And honestly, they kind of harvested the idea of this of this vertical video from, from TikTok.

00;35;03;16 - 00;35;23;06

RYAN

It was on Snapchat, it was on Vine. But TikTok really was the first app that just blew this vertical content up and these other social networks have already kind of stolen it. So they've already harvested the the pieces that they wanted from TikTok. Now, TikTok, they have two things that really set themselves apart.

00;35;23;08 - 00;35;52;04

RYAN

One is their algorithm, which is controlled technically by the CCP. So we have to keep that in mind. The other thing that they have is the TikTok shop, and this has been what has made TikTok such a great tool for advertising products. So not only is it the creator of that product who is advertising it, but they allow influencers and anybody to be able to create videos and content with those products and then make a cut of the sales.

00;35;52;06 - 00;36;19;02

RYAN

So that is why so many people like, like utilizing TikTok, because TikTok makes it really easy for influencers to market and for businesses to tie in to some of that advertising as well. 

JEN

Okay. What is your prediction? Does it does it pass? 

RYEN

I think that the bill is going to pass. I think that there is a lot of information that we don't necessarily know about how other governments are interacting with TikTok.

00;36;19;08 - 00;36;45;26

RYAN

They showed for this House vote. They actually sent push notifications out to TikTok users, encouraging them to call their senators and not to pass this bill. All that did was show the amount of reach they have into Gen Z's cell phones. They can just push one button and contact their representative. So that almost backfired in my mind for them.

00;36;45;26 - 00;37;09;16

JEN

I think it back but it backfired particularly with senators and Congress because it was a lot of youth, honestly. And I don't know that they necessarily take that vote seriously whether they should or not. Do you think that there's a backlash politically that comes from this? 

RYAN

I think that depending on the information that does come out, people might see a little bit differently.

00;37;09;20 - 00;37;30;12

RYAN

I don't know necessarily the blowback. I think that what they're proving right now is that they can work together. They can come together on one thing. And I think that by the time elections do come up, it might not be as hot of a topic. They're timing it really well, right now we've still got quite a few months before the election for everybody.

00;37;30;12 - 00;37;48;00

RYAN

So good timing on this and proving a little bit of, hey, we're still getting some stuff done. 

JEN

Who buys it? 

RYAN

Ooh, I do not know. When they first started when they first started talking about this a few years ago, people were saying that Oracle should buy it, that Microsoft should look into it. 

00;37;48;00 - 00;38;09;19

JEN

Can you imagine Microsoft owning TikTok? I mean, I feel like Clippy is going to become an influencer.  (laughter) 

RYAN

A true star. I would buy many things from Clippy. I would. I don't know who's going to buy it. I mean, Apple has already tried social media and they've gotten out of it decades ago. I think that what they're going to do is they're going to try to form a new company in order to do this.

00;38;09;22 - 00;38;30;12

RYAN

And really, why not? Why does TikTok have to be bought by somebody? Why can't it just spin-off and become its own thing managed by either an American new company or a European new company? I don't know if it'll get acquired by an existing social network. 

JEN

Okay, my final question in Fresh Takes her is, does the algorithm go with it?

00;38;30;15 - 00;38;58;10

RYAN

Ooh, I hope so. I do, because… I only say that because TikTok's algorithm is phenomenal. Phenomenal. An algorithm is a little bit of computer code, and I will say that their code is far superior to X to Instagram, to Facebook. They have a great algorithm. I would love for it to. 

JEN

All right. Well, if any of that happens, Ryan told you so we'll see.

00;38;58;13 - 00;39;23;06

JEN

That's episode two! I think we gave everybody a lot to think about. Give them some perspective on what goes into a website, a really cool campaign to be on the lookout for, and some hot digital tips. Ryan, how about you? 

RYAN

So I think that I, well, I'm getting kind of hungry, so I need to go do some stalk-in traffic on some restaurant websites, check out their menus, do a little bit of stalking and figure out where I'm going to go for lunch.

00;39;23;11 - 00;39;44;09

JEN

Alright. Well we're going to wrap this up because Ryan's hungry and I just want to give a shout-out to our intern, Natalie Novak, whose last day is today. She's been great to have on our team and to our rockstar producer that makes this podcast happen. Thanks, guys. 

JEN

Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Think Fresh.

00;39;44;11 - 00;40;03;06

RYAN

And Remember, the conversation does not have to end here. If you liked what you heard today, be sure to follow us on Facebook, LinkedIn or Instagram. Review our show on wherever you listen to your podcast on, or share all your marketing trials and triumphs by shooting us an email at info@thinkdenovo.com with the subject line Dear de Novo so we don't miss it.

00;40;03;08 - 00;40;26;11

JEN

And while you wait eagerly for our next episode, you can get your fix by checking out our blog ‘Fresh Thinking’ at blog.thinkdenovo.com. Stay tuned for more engaging conversations, laughs and of course, marketing brilliance and of course, me making fun of Ryan in the next episodes to come. 

RYAN

Here's to Fresh thinking, sparking creativity and never being boring. Bye friends.

00;40;26;13 - 00;40;29;29

JEN

And we swearing on this or no?