Fresh

Thinking

Podcast

Episode 5: Messaging Matters

By Jen Neumann on July, 3 2024
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Fresh Thinking by de Novo.

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In this episode, we tackle all things messaging, from how to craft compelling stories and helpful copywriting structure tips to AI’s true value in creative development. We also cover a campaign from Dramamine that gave a boost to barf bags.


The conversation doesn't end here! Find us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn, sign up for our newsletter, or send us an email at: info@thinkdenovo.com with the subject "Dear de Novo." 

 

Links:

Mr. Wind by Epuron

 

Creative Briefs:

The Last Barf Bag: A Tribute to a Cultural Icon

 
 
 
 

Dramamine - The Last Barf Bag (case study)

 

Transcript for Podcast Episode 5

Messaging Matters

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;20;16

RYAN

We're doing this. All right. Hello and welcome to this. 

 

JEN

Were you talking? Oh my God. All right, we'll try this again. Ryan, are you settled? 

 

RYAN

I’m settled. 

 

JEN

Okay.

 

00;00;20;18 - 00;00;41;06

JEN

Hello, and welcome to Think Fresh, a podcast brought to you by de Novo Marketing’s Collective Creative, coming to you from our Ideas Institute and here to talk about all things marketing, insights on new trends, innovative ideas and marketing tools you can use in your day to day life. And whatever else we deem relevant. I'm Jen Neumann, de Novo CEO and your host.

 

00;00;41;08 - 00;01;10;23

RYAN

And I'm Ryan Shenefelt, account manager, innovation and education lead and resident nosy eavesdropper, always looking to push the envelope. 

 

JEN

He is indeed very, very nosy. 

 

RYAN

Today we're going to talk about storytelling. And everyone just wanted to put in a pre-show note here. We are not in our recording studio right now. It was a little toasty in there. So we're currently in one of our conference rooms. In addition to a heat wave that we have going on, we'll also have a little bit of construction noise in the background.

 

00;01;10;23 - 00;01;30;07

RYAN

There is an active construction site happening behind our building, here in Cedar Rapids. So you might notice a few different noises. We're just going to roll with it today. You've still got Jan, me here, and our special guests that we'll bring in shortly. But Jen, you you had a break last month. What's been going on with you?

 

00;01;30;10 - 00;01;51;16

JEN

I've been traveling a lot. Whether it's for work or for picking up my kid from college, but, it feels good to be back in the office for a couple of days. I just returned from Nashville. 

 

RYAN
You were just at a wedding this weekend, right?

 

JEN
I was, and I think I brought back a head cold. So, I am once again, I think our first podcast, I had a cold.

 

00;01;51;16 - 00;02;07;15

JEN

And so this is my second one. I'm beginning to think it's a a pattern now. So maybe every other podcast I'll just be sick. So there we go. So, you get an extra deep version of my voice today.

 

RYAN
And you said you've been traveling a lot. I think a lot of our clients have been as well.

 

00;02;07;15 - 00;02;33;23

RYAN

We've had a lot of clients out for weeks at a time, balancing that with de Novo’s schedules. And we've, we've got coverage. But when you enter the summer or the summer travel months, things always get crazy with graduations. 

 

JEN

Yeah. You know, to be honest, it it gets hard to get, some responses sometimes your clients, I think everybody, goes on summer vacation or multiple vacations or they're just busy with their kids and then, you know, the summer passes.

 

00;02;33;23 - 00;02;50;03

JEN

And then come September, we'll have Labor Day, and then everybody craps their pants and wants all their work done all at once. So, yeah, that's that's the nature of being an agency. And we're used to it now. 

 

RYAN
Oh yeah. But we've got some pretty cool events that just took place. The downtown Iowa City summer block party just happened.

 

00;02;50;05 - 00;03;14;26

RYAN

we're we're in full farmers market season here in Cedar Rapids with the downtown nighttime market coming up. I, I love Cedar Rapids and Iowa City, mainly for, well, so many reasons. But the farmers markets, growing up in rural Illinois, our farmers markets were two people's trucks and like some potatoes and strawberries. So these farmers markets are completely different and always one of my favorite parts of the year.

 

00;03;14;27 - 00;03;33;29

JEN

Well, and just to plug the night market this year, for the downtown district in Cedar Rapids, I just heard they booked Vandello, which is one of my absolute favorite local bands, so I am I'm really looking forward to that one. 

 

RYAN
So if you want to see Jan up front dancing for Vandello, make sure you come to the, nighttime farmer's market.

 

00;03;33;29 - 00;03;56;15

JEN

Or that can serve as a warning. If you don't see that 

 

RYAN
Then just don't make your way to the front. Still come, you won't have to see Jen dancing. Just don't go to the front. In other news, I've got an announcement that I need to make for for everyone on the pod. I don't want to, make this too dramatic, but I like sports now.

 

00;03;56;18 - 00;04;21;20

RYAN

I did not watch any of, Caitlin Clark's rise to fame, if you will. I will be honest. I saw the media attention around it. The marketing. The marketing commercials, all of the, NIH deals, and I thought it was amazing. But I didn't actually watch. I said NIH…, it's NIL.

 

JEN

 It's… that that tracks for you.

 

00;04;21;22 - 00;04;45;12

RYAN

I watched all of that NIL deals and saw all of that happening, but I didn't start watching, sports until the last two games of the, NCAA, competition. Clearly. I still don't know… tournament? I don't know the words, but I have the fever. It's been exciting to to get into something that's been so foreign to me for so long. 

 

00;04;45;15 - 00;05;11;23

JEN

I do have to share this story. So. So, I mean, it might not sound like a big deal that Ryan like sports now, but like Ryan really doesn't know sports or didn't know sports. 

 

RYAN
Still don't I’ll be honest. 

 

JEN

And we were doing a, a session on digital marketing and he referred to it as NFL basketball one time. So the whole room just kind of took a breath like, did does he know he's wrong?

 

00;05;11;26 - 00;05;29;27

JEN

And we have never let Ryan live this down. So it is really funny now to just see how into this he is. He he knows players names. He's he almost knows how the game works

 

RYAN

I do I do I I learned that there are field goals in more than just football, which still I feel like there needs to be a different name if I'm being honest.

 

00;05;29;27 - 00;05;47;15

RYAN

And that shouldn't be a field goal. percentage. But but learning all of that, and yes, it was a room of about 40 people. I said, NFL basketball and everyone just like kind of looked confused. There was a mild gasp, and I just kept going because I was like, I don't know. I don't know what just what just happened.

 

00;05;47;17 - 00;06;06;24

RYAN

and then at the end after after everyone was coming up and talking with me, they were like NFL basketball?  And I still don't think it clicked. I was like, yeah, yeah. And then my coworkers gave me a little bit of crap, which is expected and, and hoped for. But.

 

JEN
I do appreciate that your, your emphasis is on women's sports though.

 

00;06;06;24 - 00;06;28;27

RYAN

Yes. Yes. So so Jen, it's, I was going to say it's just you and me today, but it is not. We have another de Novian joining us today. I am excited to introduce Chad Cooper. Chad is one of our copywriters and content strategist here at de Novo Marketing. But he also moonlights as the voice of the Roughriders.

 

00;06;28;27 - 00;06;50;18

RYAN

So you may recognize his voice. He keeps that crowd amped up all throughout the game. And you might have heard him emceeing some amazing events around, around Iowa City, Cedar Rapids. Chad Cooper, welcome to Thing Fresh. 

 

CHAD

Delighted to be here now. I'm excited to be on the podcast, but as hyped as I am for that, I think I might be even more excited by your recent love of sports.

 

00;06;50;18 - 00;07;11;05

CHAD

Ryan. I mean that that really is the peak for me now. We have so many more new lines of communication. 

 

RYAN

Oh yes, oh yes. And and the fever puns. That's been my favorite part so far. being able to say I've got the Fever is one of my favorites. And I know Jen just has a head cold, but it's even better to be able to make fun of people that might have the fever in a different way.

 

00;07;11;07 - 00;07;27;12

JEN

My fever broke last night. I don't even think I'm contagious. Also, Chad, thanks for not making me the deepest voice on the podcast for once. I

 

CHAD
I think that's why I'm here for this part. 

 

RYAN

It's not going to be me. It's not going to be me. 

 

JEN

It’s not going to be you. 

 

RYAN

But, Chad. Yes. Thank you for joining us.

 

00;07;27;14 - 00;07;52;21

RYAN

I do have to ask, what got you started being the voice of the Rough Riders?

 

CHAD
So I started my entire career in radio, which obviously is a huge surprise to everyone listening right now. But I wanted to use the voice immediately. And so through that radio gig, other opportunities present themselves. And so I used to host a show with the Rough Riders, where I interviewed players on a weekly basis for a three month span, and then that just grew from there.

 

00;07;52;24 - 00;08;14;15

RYAN

Oh, I did not know that you started started it all in radio. That's awesome. 

 

CHAD

Yes, it's my origin story. 

 

RYAN
And now that I'm a, sports fan, I have seen during like half times intermissions, between quarters, they have the people that go out and hype the Fever crowd and they do all of these fun, different games. Do you do things like that at the Rough Riders games as well?

 

00;08;14;16 - 00;08;35;20

CHAD

Oh, we sure do. Ryan. We we race, we race. Toboggans on the ice. We have 

 

RYAN

what's what's it, what’s a tobboggan. 

 

CHAD
It looks like, kind of like a canoe. yeah. That kind of shape. We race karts on the ice. We have three wheel tricycle races. 

 

RYAN

Oh my gosh. 

 

CHAD

Yeah. So we do a lot on the ice, a lot of game competitions.

 

00;08;35;20 - 00;08;54;09

CHAD

But we do not have a Rough Riders dance team yet.

 

JEN

So I’ve seen you in action at the games. You don't sit down a lot. 

 

CHAD

I don't sit down at all. So that's the best workout I get all week. 

 

JEN
Yeah. You are up and down those steps.

 

00;08;54;09 - 00;09;19;22

JEN

You're. Yeah, you're definitely gaining elevation. It's it's a whole, probably next level of energy that that takes to do that. 

 

CHAD

Yeah. That that floss doesn't give away itself. 

 

RYAN
How do you, how do you walk on the ice. Do you have special shoes? 

 

CHAD
So it helps after they've played an entire period of hockey, their skates have cut it up and roughed it up so much that actually it's almost like walking on asphalt.

 

00;09;19;25 - 00;09;37;15

CHAD

After they bring the Zamboni through, that's a whole different story. That's a disaster waiting to happen. So typically we do all of the intermission entertainment when the ice is still cut up. And then we have a pretty firm deadline where we have to get off. And then they bring the Zamboni on, and then it looks like a sheet of glass.

 

00;09;37;15 - 00;09;52;26

RYAN

So that’s a whole other piece of logistics that you don't know is actually happening. When you're at a when you're at a hockey match… meet?

 

JEN

I kind of assumed you were wearing micro spikes when you have to get out there. 



CHAD

No, but that would be a good idea. Maybe from now on. I've taken a few almost tumbles from time to time.

 

00;09;52;26 - 00;10;09;13

CHAD

You know, when that when you get to the edge of that ice, it's still pretty slick. But I've. I've caught myself. When you're in front of a 2000, 3000 people, you want to you want to mind your steps. 

 

RYAN

Oh, yeah. Of course. And now that I'm into once again into sports, my algorithm on social media has shifted.

 

00;10;09;13 - 00;10;32;14

RYAN

So I know as of last night, the, oh, goodness, the Stanley Cup was named. Florida one for the first time. I want to say Jaguars. I want to say Jaguars. I'm not sure. But the Stanley Cup that is also now now done. 

 

JEN
So you're doing your best. 

 

RYAN
I'm really trying. And I have just enough to be able to not actually talk about it, but bring it up, which is all you really need, right?

 

00;10;32;16 - 00;10;55;27

CHAD

It's just a conversation starter. 

 

JEN
Well, conversations are a great way to kind of pivot into what we're here to talk about today. 

 

RYAN

Exactly. So let's talk about storytelling. Chad, Jen how how do you define storytelling? I think that word is used a lot in marketing. Right. but like what's the difference between a story and like like an announcement?

 

00;10;55;29 - 00;11;15;19

JEN

Right. I'm going to I'm going to jump in here, but I really, want to hear a lot more from chat on this because this is what he does and this is what he does so well. But, storytelling is an often overused term. and and like you said, the difference between an, an announcement and a story, there's a big difference.

 

00;11;15;19 - 00;11;37;07

JEN

And storytelling is really how you share information in a way that engages your audience. And it's it's really it is a crucial part of good communications and marketing. But it has to be done well and it has to be done artfully. And that's, that's why we brought Chad in here to, to talk about that. So what's your take on storytelling?

 

00;11;37;07 - 00;11;54;12

CHAD

Yeah, absolutely. When I think of storytelling, I think of the combination of emotion and information. When those two things come together, that's the starting point of a story. And to be able to craft something that, to Jen's point, is more of a narrative than just simply an announcement, simply just a recitation of facts or of benefits or features.

 

00;11;54;12 - 00;12;16;19

CHAD

Instead, there's really an arc to what we're doing, and if we think of just about the basic human nature of how we talk to each other, we'd like to talk in that way, a way that's human, in a way that's personal, way that's emotional, not a way that's robotic. That just covers a bulleted list. So storytelling is a way to dive deeper on some of those facts, some of those figures, those things that we throw around on a daily basis.

 

00;12;16;26 - 00;12;43;20

CHAD

It's a framework that we can use to engage audiences in a way that's much more authentic than simply just repeating something. 

 

JEN
So I think what happens with with people is that they confuse that announcement with a story. So, here's an analogy I use when I'm talking to, you know, municipal leaders is, when I ask them, what's a story about their community, they'll say, we opened a dog park.

 

00;12;43;23 - 00;13;11;09

JEN

Well, that's an announcement, right? That's not a story. The story would be a couple falls in love while scooping poop at a at a dog park. That's memorable. Tell the story of how that happened or how these people met or, you know, maybe had some conflict between their dogs and, what that what that did for them and how that impacted their lives in your community that just opened a dog park.

 

00;13;11;14 - 00;13;37;25

JEN

That's the difference between an announcement and a story. 

 

RYAN

So can you still talk about the opening of the dog park or do you tell the story? And then in in additional materials around that story, then you talk about the dog park. 

 

JEN

I mean, you're still going to make announcements, right? You're still going to do your public relations. I mean, you're going to want to tell the community a dog park opened so that people can go there and meet and there, you know, fall in love or their dogs fall in love.

 

00;13;37;25 - 00;14;12;21

JEN

Who knows? But I mean, that's the difference. You know, you're going to make those announcements, but then you're going to look for those stories. And what we like to do is help people realize these stories are in, whether it's a community or a business or an organization. These stories happen every day. It's it's a matter of catching them and being able to identify them and then turning them into that artistic version of, of the, of what happened 

 

CHAD

And to that point as well, with storytelling, companies and organizations

 

00;14;12;21 - 00;14;35;10

CHAD

what you see is this tendency and it's we've all we're all guilty of it from time to time. We lean on benefits, features, products and services. But the fact is, is that unless you have something that's truly proprietary, it's tough to stand out to be distinctive just based off of benefits, features and services and products alone. That's all part of what you can feed into a story.

 

00;14;35;10 - 00;15;01;22

CHAD

But what we talk about when we speak with clients, when we speak internally about developing story, is where do we start? And we typically start with “why?”, which is a basic question that seems very general on the surface. But when you ask an individual why they started a company, why they saw a need for a specific service or product, then you start to get that human story that Jen was talking about.

 

00;15;01;28 - 00;15;30;16

CHAD

It's either a love, a deep passion for something, it was a customer complaint or a customer pain point that maybe led to a product or service that allows you to tell a story and then be able to naturally fill in that information about benefits and features and whatnot. We've seen a lot. I've seen it over the past year or so, this huge emphasis on talk about benefits over features, but I would argue we should go even deeper than that and really look at that storytelling aspect of it.

 

00;15;30;16 - 00;15;52;23

CHAD

How do we present benefits in a way that engage, that resonate with audiences in a way that they can they can see how the product will actually affect their life on a day to day basis. 

 

RYAN
You mentioned, like talking about customer complaints and pain points. What are other ways that you can get the stories out of out of clients, out of people?

 

00;15;52;26 - 00;16;13;12

RYAN

How do they be on the lookout for a potential story? I guess.



CHAD

One way is to just look at the day to day interactions they have. I'm I'm huge on touchpoints, so if it's a business where you're seeing a lot of business to customer interactions, what do those look like on a day to day basis? Also being able to essentially crowdsource information from your other employees, right.

 

00;16;13;12 - 00;16;37;20

CHAD

What do those interactions look like? That's how we start to craft stories. Also. Another point is why are people coming to you in the first place? That's typically a great starting point for a story, and gives you an avenue to then be able to expand on more information.

 

JEN

And that can go across more than just storytelling. I mean, even when I'm talking to a prospect, I'm going to keep asking questions because I want to know the real why.

 

00;16;37;23 - 00;17;09;18

JEN

It's often not just to increase sales volume. There's a reason why they want to do that. Like, well, what does that enable you to do if you do that? And then you get to the why behind something, and you get to these motivations that tell you a lot more and they add so much more context and color, to the relationship and gives you so much more to work with when it comes time to develop that narrative behind why this company does what it does, or why this community is a great place to live.

 

00;17;09;20 - 00;17;34;09

CHAD

And there are organizations, communities and certain municipalities and just overall companies that I think they look at their industry and they say, well, this isn't really a natural fit for storytelling, when in case the when in fact, the exact opposite is true. So when we think about great stories, I think people tend to look at sports, they tend to look at the fashion industry, they tend to look at industries where stories are maybe more apparent, more on the surface.

 

00;17;34;11 - 00;17;56;03

CHAD

But in reality, if you can tell a great story about your industry in a way that hits home with your intended audience, that is the most profound way to be able to impact what you're talking about. So, for instance, I think about this agency, it was an ad from years ago, but it was for a sustainable wind energy in, in Europe, and I think they were called it Epuron is how you pronounce the name.

 

00;17;56;03 - 00;18;16;02

CHAD

But it was all about wind energy. Wind energy. We can talk all about the proprietary nature of wind, of solar, of, what sustainable energy does, how it impacts communities. But is that really the best way to be able to engage with audiences? We can talk about the benefits, the features of wind energy, of sustainable energy overall.

 

00;18;16;02 - 00;18;33;24

CHAD

What they did instead was crafted an ad with a huge individual who was they found, an actor who was huge. I think he was a professional wrestler or whatnot. They're dressed in all black, and they put on this very small kind of derby hat on him, and he walked around this local community and he hit someone's hat off their head.

 

00;18;33;26 - 00;18;51;05

CHAD

He overturned one of these, like, table tents. He went over and blew over like a tent that people were sleeping in. He went over and splashed water on somebody. And the whole aspect of it was he was the human embodiment of wind. And what they said is now we've taken wind and given it its purpose, giving it its true nature.

 

00;18;51;05 - 00;19;12;26

CHAD

And the tagline that I love, which ended it all, was “The wind. His potential is ours.” The idea was it was taking something - we look at it on a human nature, day to day interactions. Wind is an annoyance, right? It gets in the way of what we do on a day to day basis. But what it really does is it can be a literal fuel for what we want to do in terms of powering that community.

 

00;19;12;26 - 00;19;37;09

CHAD

So what we haven't talked about yet, but what is great to bring in with storytelling is also that humorous aspect to it, that human emotion of what we use. That ad is a great example of that. It took something that could have gotten easily lost in the mix. There are a lot of other companies that talk about wind energy, that talk about sustainable energy, and they typically lean on those benefits, those features, the things that can get lost in the bulleted list very easily.

 

00;19;37;12 - 00;19;59;09

CHAD

Instead, when you reframe that and tell a story around it in a humorous or human way, then people remember it and it sticks with them.

 

JEN

And that there are there are actually very few human emotions. Right. and when you are telling a story, you can connect with people by tapping into those emotions. And some of them are positive and some of them are negative.

 

00;19;59;09 - 00;20;18;19

JEN

I mean, you could use anger and one would say some people do use anger, to connect with, with their audiences. But you can inspire them. You can make them laugh when you do that. There's actual there are there are connections that happen in the brain that help make that more memorable. And that's why we have the Super Bowl ads, right?

 

00;20;18;19 - 00;20;38;22

Unknown

That we do. That is part of that emotional connection. 

 

RYAN

Yeah. You can you can create a a wonderful video, a wonderful story. But if you're not making people stop and actually listen, what's the point of that? So leveraging humor, leveraging those different emotions, those are things that make them stop and pay attention. But then like Chad was saying, actually remember it, have that recall.

 

00;20;38;22 - 00;20;57;26

RYAN

Chad, you were saying that that commercial, was was from years ago and you still remember it almost to the tee. 

 

CHAD
Yeah. And it, it clearly it won a lot of awards. So it was recognized by the industry as well. But it was also something that stuck with audiences because of the way they went about it. And to Jim's point, it's not like we have a huge pool to draw from in terms of human emotions.

 

00;20;57;26 - 00;21;18;26

CHAD

So it's leveraging which emotion works depending on the situation, depending on the audience, and then figuring out a really distinctive way to use it. Because even though that pool of emotions is fairly small, ways to be able to use humor, anger, love, whatever it might be, that's where we can start to differentiate some of the messaging we put together.

 

00;21;18;28 - 00;21;39;13

JEN

Let's talk a little bit about a video we produced, in conjunction with Indian Creek Nature Center here in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. This video is really an embodiment of what the Nature Center hopes to do in the future, and taps into a bit of what they've done in the past as well. we've dropped this in the show notes for you.

 

00;21;39;20 - 00;21;57;05

JEN

you can take a pause and, and, watch it before you listen to this segment or watch it after. But it's a really beautiful and compelling video, that I think has driven a lot of results for them. Can you tell us how you got from the blank, blank page to that end result of that beautiful video?

 

00;21;57;07 - 00;22;14;06

CHAD

Obviously, we're talking about nature here. And when I think of nature, I think of poetry. So the whole inspiration for this script, if you can believe it, really came from one line of poetry that I happen to come across. And I remembered from years ago that I went back to, and that was the jumping off point to then build around that.

 

00;22;14;06 - 00;22;39;06

CHAD

And I've always been a big believer, especially when we talk about messaging and writing, that the writing itself needs to be able to stand alone. If you can read what you've written, what you've put together on a piece of paper, and there's some resonance to it, it has power to it, then everything else just amplifies that. And this was a great example of that, being able to read the script that we put together as a team for Indian Creek Nature Center, that in and of itself is poetic.

 

00;22;39;13 - 00;22;58;12

CHAD

You could you could publish that in a, in a work and it tells you everything you need to know in terms of their goals and also their importance, their vitality to the community. Then that messaging drives what we put together in terms of video, in terms of visuals and images, and that just builds on it, and it makes it more profound.

 

00;22;58;12 - 00;23;20;20

CHAD

So if you have an opportunity to watch that video, it's a perfect example of really the combination of the power of words with the tangible nature of video. And those two things come together. You have something that isn't just engaging, but it also prompts people to be motivated to take action. And so when we talk about emotion, I think that's getting a few things there.

 

00;23;20;20 - 00;23;41;06

CHAD

It's getting that love, that love of nature, but it's also getting that feel that people need for serenity. You can never operate in a vacuum. So we know the importance of Indian Creek Nature Center, but we're also very aware, very cognizant of the surrounding world, right, of social media, of the hustle and bustle of everyday life that doesn't go anywhere.

 

00;23;41;06 - 00;24;10;01

CHAD

But what people love is this idea of a true escape. Where can you go someplace where the serenity is there that you can find nowhere else? That's the environment that we like to build with a multitude of avenues or of companies and organizations. I think they each provide some sort of relief in some way, shape or form. But when you talk about nature, it's a perfect example to be able to find that human element that unfortunately, in the day to day world, it's tough to come by.

 

00;24;10;03 - 00;24;29;18

RYAN

And I will say, Chad, you you mentioned having a really strong piece of writing and marrying that and partnering it with, really strong creative as well, or the the visual piece of it, I have to say, after to the horn of the team, this this video won an award not only for the written script and the writing, but also the video production.

 

00;24;29;20 - 00;24;55;15

RYAN

so two awards, one video. That was something that I think everyone had to know, but was really proud of. 

 

JEN
Chad, I hear you referenced poetry a lot in when we're working together. Tell me a little bit about how you use that particular medium when you are working across different types of industries and, and organizations, because not everything naturally has that fit, right?

 

00;24;55;15 - 00;25;15;29

JEN

Not I mean, the Indian Creek Nature Center is a very inspiring place to be. But, you know, say we're talking manufacturing. Tell me how you use your particular and favorite medium of poetry. Which I think that you can pick any medium, whatever inspires you. But how do you use that for something that's, you know, not that naturally inspiring.

 

00;25;15;29 - 00;25;34;14

JEN

You know, nature is beautiful type of subject. But, you know, let's talk recycling aluminum here.

 

CHAD

Yeah. First is rhythm and tone. Regardless of the industry galas of the product or the service, there's an idea of being able to switch up rhythm and tone in a way that one, plays into people's kind of behavioral science nature, of wanting to get information.

 

00;25;34;20 - 00;26;00;11

CHAD

There's varying the length of sentences.These are all poetic structure in terms of being able to bring this sort of thing in. The other aspect of this, which I've talked about previously, is even in an industry that doesn't necessarily lend itself to poetry, on the surface, that's the real opportunity, because so many other organizations are thinking of themselves just in that very kind of generic, streamlined way, not bringing in those human elements of poetry.

 

00;26;00;11 - 00;26;30;23

CHAD

So, for instance, if I think about manufacturing, what do the products they produce? Who are who do they serve? Perhaps they serve farmers. Well, now we've got the human element right there. So then we start to build off of that human, that poetic nature of farming, the being able to get up early in the morning, that beauty of the Midwest and then having a product that makes that work easier so that they then can turn around and feed America, be able to produce, be able to generate.

 

00;26;30;23 - 00;26;49;29

CHAD

So very often, even in industries that seem like they might be more generic or tougher to really find that human element, you'll find there's typically only 1 or 2 degrees of separation from something that's human. And as soon as you find that human element, that's when you have the poetic nature of it. So I would say part of it is rhythm and tone.

 

00;26;49;29 - 00;27;13;27

CHAD

That's the natural way we talk as human beings. And then it's finding that human element, regardless of the product, regardless of the service, regardless of the organization. 

 

RYAN

So we talked about the emotion of of getting people to, to pay attention and to really connect with the story. But how do you how do you tell a good story? What are some methods and how do you how do you craft that story to be compelling all the way throughout?

 

00;27;13;29 - 00;27;32;29

CHAD

Two things come to mind when we talk about messaging and communication that on the surface can seem rather nebulous, and that doesn't mean that that's a bad thing. That's what leads to the poetic nature of it. But you need a way to be able to structure story, to be able to actually put words on the page. And so what I find helpful are a couple of frameworks.

 

00;27;32;29 - 00;27;56;00

CHAD

One is to think about this idea of AIDA, which has become a fairly popular acronym in terms of writing and communication. And that's simply an acronym for attention, interests, desire, and action. So when I think about putting together any piece of writing, I try to structure within that framework, and it typically works. That can go from anything to drafting a script, to writing an email, to putting together a print piece.

 

00;27;56;00 - 00;28;17;03

CHAD

It all can fit within that framework. What you want to do is build some sort of attention. That's where that creativity comes in. You want to be able to make people look. I call it that billboard effect. What makes people stop on the side of the road or glance upward and notice something. If we think about the digital world that we live in now, it's that banner ad, what makes them actually look to the side and pay attention.

 

00;28;17;05 - 00;28;36;15

CHAD

Typically, it's not just a product or a benefit, it has to be something that is creative, that is elemental, that resonates with their audience. Interest is just piquing their interest in some way, shape or form. So I always find it as in giving some substance, that attention grabber. Right now you have their attention. Now you need to build interest.

 

00;28;36;17 - 00;28;52;07

CHAD

Desire is that human emotional aspect of what we do on a day to day basis. How do you build the desire to be able to want to take that next step, whatever it might be, and then that naturally leads into action, which is really the most kind of cut and dry black and white version of this, which is that call to action.

 

00;28;52;07 - 00;29;13;05

CHAD

What do you want that individual to actually do? In the case of Indian Creek Nature Center, in the video that we discussed, the action we want them to take is a little more nebulous. We really want them to just be inspired, be motivated, and engage with Indian Creek Nature Center. If we're working with a product or a specific service, it might be that we're driving a much more specific action.

 

00;29;13;05 - 00;29;43;11

CHAD

We want them to request more information. We want them to interact in some way. But if you think about attention, interest, desire and action, that's a beautiful framework to be able to create story.

 

JEN
And it's really easy in the marketing world to skip some of those steps. And, and that's where, you really have to pay attention to it and make sure that you are leading the visitor or the viewer, to an action and that you are taking the time and the care to develop the interest around it.

 

00;29;43;13 - 00;30;02;29

RYAN

And with attention, you can't just it's you mentioned banner ads, Chad. So instantly I thought of the the flashing banner ads that have like a starburst, a bright yellow starburst on it. Not the best way to capture attention all the time. Right? So the AIDA method, that's one of the ways. What about are there any others that you use?

 

00;30;02;29 - 00;30;30;06

CHAD

One of the things that I always think in mind is there are two things that if you use in with intentionality, they work. Puns is one. Curse words from time to time, and then adjectives. There's there's very few places. There are very few places, I should say, where you can overuse those words. Meaning that I wouldn't necessarily say we should go overboard with those right there.

 

00;30;30;06 - 00;30;54;00

CHAD

Also, for emphasis, we use adjectives when we want to emphasize something, we curse when we want to emphasize something, when we start to use puns, it's because we want to have some humor. We want to play into those things. If we start to overuse that, it becomes boring, it becomes generic, it becomes groan worthy. 

 

JEN
I feel targeted right now, just saying.

 

CHAD

But what I love to think about, and I saw this a long time ago, and it's stuck in my head.

 

00;30;54;00 - 00;31;16;15

CHAD

So much so that I scrutinize my writing to to just the ultimate degree. Whenever I write something is to think about replacing, in most instances, adjectives with verbs. So an example that I thought of when I, when I knew we were going to talk about this today, was we could talk about a new product, just product XYZ. We could say that that new product is safe, effective and groundbreaking.

 

00;31;16;17 - 00;31;49;02

CHAD

That describes that product, but it does so in a very generic way. We could apply those adjectives to any product, any service. And it might be true, but it isn't captivating. Instead, if I reframe that and I say that this new product saves you time, reduces costs, and puts you at the top of your industry. Now all of a sudden, I've reframed that entire message in a way that speaks to the benefits, but also helps to set up maybe a story about saving time, about reducing costs, and about being a leader in whatever that industry might be.

 

00;31;49;02 - 00;32;16;23

CHAD

Now we have parallels. We have tangents, we have offshoots to be able to craft stories. So I think about ways that we can use certain elements, certain storytelling tools, whether it be puns, whether it be adjectives, but not getting too encumbered with those sorts of things as well, because it can start to water down the messaging. And in many cases, it's once you start to lean on it too much, it becomes kind of a lazy habit as opposed to something that's really captivating and moves an audience to take some sort of action.

 

00;32;16;25 - 00;32;37;08

JEN

I always see somebody else say something is extremely fast. And I'm like, just take it out. You know? You don't need that word. it's overused. It means nothing. People don't think it's faster than anything else. It's just such an overuse of that type of of mechanism in, in the English language. So, I think that's, that's really good.

 

00;32;37;08 - 00;33;01;11

JEN

And your example of the, the actual benefit, the end benefit to, to the target audience is, is way more impactful than what you say, safe and fast or whatever that might be. 

 

CHAD

Yeah. The other thing to think about here, too, is when we get I think we get so deep into certain industries at times that we do tend to focus on those features, the benefits, and not that those don't have value.

 

00;33;01;11 - 00;33;28;27

CHAD

Those should have a place in what you do, but you can expand back. Whether you think about your favorite movie or your favorite book that you've read. Those mediums have story arcs, natural story arcs to it. So whether it's that hero's tale of being able to have an origin story meet some sort of success and then failure and then rise from that, those are traditional story arcs that if you pull yourself back far enough, you can realize you can apply to your product, your company, your service.

 

00;33;29;00 - 00;33;46;09

CHAD

That's when we get back around to that idea of why, why did you start this company? Why did you start this product? We can start to build your hero story and start to put it together in a way that might seem like it has nothing at all to do with your specific industry. The magic is, once you see that story crafted.

 

00;33;46;09 - 00;34;05;19

CHAD

Once we plug in the benefits, the details of your specific organization, your company, your product, now all of a sudden, not only have we hit on what makes you distinctive, but we've done it in a way that engages people. No one really wants to interact with their idea of marketing on a day to day basis. That doesn't sound fun, but tell me a story.

 

00;34;05;19 - 00;34;29;05

Unknown

Make it interesting. And I'm in. 

 

RYAN

Yeah, Jen, you always say you're a, product of marketing or, a victim of 

 

JEN
A victim. A victim of marketing all the time. So. 

 

RYAN

But Chad, earlier you said you don't want to water down your message. And I think that that is a more eloquent way of saying you can't put 10 pounds of of shit in a 5 pound bucket.

 

00;34;29;08 - 00;34;49;26

RYAN

Oh, no. Ryan swore. 

 

CHAD

But for emphasis, though, so. 

 

RYAN

Right. And I think that that's really important when you are creating something you can't have so many messages that it leaves people with too many actions to take at the end of that AIDA framework. Right? You you have to keep it. Keep it simple. Give them 1 or 2 things to do and 1 or 2 things to remember and take away.

 

00;34;49;26 - 00;35;11;06

RYAN

Right? 

CHAD

Absolutely. In that story, when we talk about story, that doesn't mean that it needs to be long. It needs to simply fit a framework that engages your audience in a way that they remember. And one of the ways to be able to think about this is to get beyond just the mere idea of content, right? We talk about content marketing, content in and of itself should not be.

 

00;35;11;11 - 00;35;31;03

CHAD

We shouldn't dispose of that word. It has its place, it has its meaning, and it has a certain use. But what I've found overall is that when we start to think about content, we think about merely filling that bucket. To your point, Ryan, filling a spreadsheet with content, filling a sheet with information, and then we lose the story.

 

00;35;31;06 - 00;35;49;16

CHAD

I much more like to think about it in terms of substance. What substance do we bring to what we're creating? If we can write, if we can craft messaging that has substance, that has storytelling, that has purpose, that's different than merely content. And when we think about content, we tend to think about it in a fairly surface level way.

 

00;35;49;19 - 00;36;08;03

CHAD

Getting back to that idea of why and going deeper, that's where the substance of whatever we're talking about and writing about comes into play. 

 

JEN
And I want to add, you had mentioned 1 or 2 ideas within something. The temptation to, as Ryan said, put 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bucket. Also, I just love that analogy in general and use it all the time.

 

00;36;08;05 - 00;36;44;17

JEN

There is. There are studies that show how when you spread the attention out, how and you put like three ideas in an email marketing piece, how it really divides it and dilutes it so much that the retention of that information drops drastically. I like to say one idea, per whether it's, and an email that's going out or a video that's being produced or a page on a site, that is that I to me, it's like one of the cardinal sins of marketing and it's lazy.

 

00;36;44;20 - 00;37;11;01

JEN

We can produce more content. We don't have to do it all in one shot. And that is really important for people to remember, that you are really just trying to get across one, maybe two points when when you do this. Chad, I'm sure you have some formal training in this. A lot of us do. Let's talk about the classic story arc and how that does play a role in telling a story effectively.

 

00;37;11;08 - 00;37;44;11

CHAD

When we think about how we structure story, we can really pull ourselves out and think about the most basic storytelling elements, the structures of that. So I think of the origin story meaning some sort of conflict and then resolution. Those are kind of the three parts of a basic story. And then we start to think about general story arcs, thinking about your why, the origin of your company, your product or service, a conflict that's met along the way, whether that's a customer pain point or whether that's something that you happen to find in your starting of a company or a product or service.

 

00;37;44;18 - 00;38;04;06

CHAD

And then that resolution, that victory, if you will, that next step of being able to structure it in a way that someone can easily follow it. But to your point, and also basing that around one central idea, we can take an element of a story arc that maybe has 2 or 3 pivot points or structure or elements to it, but base that around one central idea.

 

00;38;04;06 - 00;38;29;21

CHAD

So maybe it's one product, it's one service or one company. Being able to use that kind of story arc builds in human emotion, but it also helps. It helps us keep that story organized and structured so that short, it's concise, but also it's presented in a way that isn't just a recitation of facts and figures

 

JEN

And that that conflict piece of it is really where you, you hook the the listener or the reader or the viewer.

 

00;38;29;23 - 00;38;52;21

JEN

That's where they can't turn away from your story at that point in time. And that's what you want. Right. And, and that can that can cross industries, that can cross topics. But if you share that, that conflict or that difficulty that's been overcome, that obstacle, then they feel connected to it. And that's what we're looking for. 

 

00;38;52;21 - 00;39;25;19

JEN

So if I was going to recap this, you know, I want to start with, I think it's time to reclaim the word storytelling for what it really is. It's it has become a bit of a buzzword, not just a bit. It's become a buzzword in marketing and people again, confuse that with announcements or, you know, just sharing data in an animated video. But it really comes back to that art, you know, marrying the science and the emotion together is what produces refreshingly meaningful work, right?

 

00;39;25;19 - 00;39;49;16

JEN

That is the type of work that makes a difference, whether it's our clients or whether it's somebody reading a newspaper story. It's storytelling that captures the mind and the heart together. 

 

RYAN

Okay, we talked about storytelling. Now it's time for our next segment, The Power of Three. This is three educational or practical pieces that you can take away from our conversation today.

 

00;39;49;18 - 00;40;14;00

RYAN

So Chad, what are your three takeaways around storytelling?

 

CHAD

We talked a lot in this podcast about structure. How do you actually get to the point of constructing an effective, compelling, engaging story? First, you start with your story. You start with why and ask yourself, why did you get involved in this particular business? The service, this product, or whatever your industry or your situation is?

 

00;40;14;00 - 00;40;34;10

CHAD

Start with why and start with your story, and then you identify your audience or audiences. That helps you craft messaging to be able to speak directly to that specific audience, that person. That's how you connect on a 1 to 1 on a human level. And then finally, it's to set your tone and then establish those key messaging points.

 

00;40;34;13 - 00;41;09;20

CHAD

So we talked about creating a framework for story. Now is where you plug in some of those benefits. Some of those features. Those can help amplify what you're talking about. They just shouldn't be the end all be all of how restructuring your messaging structuring your story. So if you start with your story, if you identify your audience as the people you want to talk to, and then finally, if you create a tone that's distinctive and bring in those key messaging points, that is effective storytelling, that is effective messaging, that combines both that strategy, the research element, and then that human emotion, that poetry that we've talked about.

 

00;41;09;27 - 00;41;33;10

CHAD

When you marry those two things, you have something that's compelling. It's going to have a better chance of engaging an audience. 

 

RYAN
Your three takeaways the power of three. Now it's time for Creative Briefs, a segment where we dig into some existing creative by other agencies or work that we've done. This month we are looking at Dramamine, which is a stomach ache, nausea, combating medication.

 

00;41;33;15 - 00;42;00;02

RYAN

And this piece was done by FCB, an agency out of Chicago. It partners a documentary with a campaign around the documentary. The documentary is called The Last Barf Bag. like like millennials we’re always told we are killing industries. And in this piece they talk about how Dramamine is killing the barf bag industry because people don't need barf bags because they take Dramamine before their flights, before any car trips, things like that.

 

00;42;00;07 - 00;42;22;09

JEN

Ryan takes Dramamine before he comes into work, before he drives the two miles to the office every day. 

 

RYAN

This was so special to me because I have been a lifelong Dramamine taker. Starting with the children's Chewables when I was like two years old, I, frequently get car sick, plane sick motion sickness in general. So I really liked this when it when it came across the screen.

 

00;42;22;12 - 00;42;43;25

RYAN

But, the really great part of this is it also won a Cannes Lion award from the Cannes Lions. We regularly get asked by our clients where we get inspired and, places that we're watching. And this is an opportunity. It's kind of like the, the Oscars, the Grammys of advertising. It actually won the Grand Prix award in the health and wellness category.

 

00;42;43;25 - 00;43;03;08

RYAN

So kind of like the the main award of the of the Cannes Lions. So really great piece. We'll link it in the show notes. but it also really ties into our topic today, storytelling. And it's a very short documentary about 10 to 15 minutes. But then in addition to that, they built a whole campaign around it.

 

00;43;03;12 - 00;43;24;22

RYAN

So they had a red carpet. They showed it at a very beautiful theater in New York. They had different barf bag enthusiasts from around the world come to this event, but it talked about how there's a community of barf bag collectors and people aren't making barf bags anymore. So they're the thing that they are passionate about, the thing that they collect, the thing that they hunt for is going away.

 

00;43;24;25 - 00;43;43;11

RYAN

Dramamine then gets creative and they say, hey, we know that these are going away. We don't want them. We don't want to kill an industry. We just want to repurpose them. So they, give you some other creative ideas for for barf bags, such as a vase for flowers, a way to keep a can. Cool, ways to bring your lunch to work.

 

00;43;43;11 - 00;44;05;05

RYAN

So they give you all these different options for using using this bag. But the kind of the shell that they wrap it in, very creative, very appealing. And it's something that people don't like to talk about or people that things that you don't necessarily think that you would create a story around barf bags, but they created some amazing work around it.

 

00;44;05;08 - 00;44;21;16

RYAN

What about you guys? What did you think of this? 



CHAD
Well, this is the epitome of being able to find a story anywhere. To your point, Ryan, when you think about Dramamine, that is one of the most baseline generic basic products. We really don't think twice about taking it. We just know we need it. If we’re going to go on a flight.

 

00;44;21;16 - 00;44;46;08

CHAD

But I would argue that there's a lot of drama in Dramamine, right? There's a lot of drama around the prospect of potentially getting sick and vomiting, throwing up. It's, public ridicule. It's humiliating. It sticks with you for the rest of time. I still remember a kid in third grade who threw up during class. Right. It's something that you don't really want to be known for, and you certainly don't want to do on a flight.

 

00;44;46;08 - 00;45;13;16

JEN

And you definitely don't want to get caught on video and have that go viral. 

 

CHAD
Exactly. Especially in today's world where that would that's that is what would happen. But I love the idea of one tying into the human emotion of that suspense, that drama that is around the prospect of potentially getting sick, sliding in Dramamine as that cure all, but then also touching on the long history of barf bags and being able to repurpose that idea.

 

00;45;13;23 - 00;45;32;19

CHAD

That's a way to bring in humor, bring an emotion to something. To your point, Ryan, we typically don't like to talk about on a regular basis, and it's also the way to take a product that seems pretty baseline in nature and give it a lot of heart, give it a lot of human emotion. We think about because of that ad, because of this documentary within that campaign.

 

00;45;32;26 - 00;45;49;17

CHAD

Now we think about Dramamine in a different way. That isn't just merely a product you take when you feel a certain way. Now it has a story behind it. It has, it has a narrative to it. 

 

JEN
So you think about why does Dramamine even need to advertise? And that is that it needs to stay top of mind.

 

00;45;49;19 - 00;46;17;22

JEN

There are some alternatives, but you're right, we all think Dramamine, even if we're taking some off brand when we do it, they want you to make that choice. They want to make sure that the word Dramamine is embedded in your mind when you do that. So when I think about what's the strategic insight from this campaign, I think about the fact that they are reminding people that the alternative, if you don't take Dramamine, is a barf bag, and it might not be there anymore.

 

00;46;17;25 - 00;46;39;11

JEN

Right? Take Dramamine and, and circumvent the drama before it can even happen. So, you know, that's that's the big takeaway from that. 

 

RYAN
Circumvent the drama. So yes, overall, a phenomenal campaign, one that hits close to home for me as somebody who, was frequently motion sick as a kid, should really be an investor in Dramamine.

 

00;46;39;11 - 00;46;58;04

RYAN

But it speaks what they're trying to do - increase brand awareness, make sure that people make that decision to choose Dramamine versus some of the other alternatives out there. Really elevate the brand story for something that people don't like to think about or talk about. But again, we put this in the show notes, watch the video, watch the campaign wrap up.

 

00;46;58;06 - 00;47;23;25

RYAN

Really great. The doc does go into some specifics. You can avoid those, but truly, truly a great campaign. Funny, comical. But also very insightful. Like we talked about today. And time for our last segment, Fresh Takes. And in in this fresh take, Chad actually does a great job of tying together one of our previous topics on the on the podcast into storytelling.

 

00;47;23;28 - 00;47;46;01

RYAN

So, Chad, talk a little bit about AI and storytelling and how they go together or how they don't. 

 

CHAD

I think we've gone almost this entire podcast without mentioning AI at all to this point. So that's in and of itself, that's impressive because I think we've structured so much of our conversation around the human nature of the emotion of storytelling and of messaging.

 

00;47;46;03 - 00;48;05;29

CHAD

AI in and of itself is a tool. I think what's happening, though, is it's being used in the wrong way in many cases, especially with messaging structure, people see it as the basically is the panacea kind of is the tool that is going to cure all ills, and that this is the really the replacement for all messaging and all original writing.

 

00;48;05;29 - 00;48;28;20

CHAD

But that isn't the case at all. I would argue that really AI, instead of being a thought starter, should really be much more of an information idea gatherer. And what I mean by that is we should always start with something that's deep and substance and purpose. And that is the opposite of what AI provides right now. It needs to be something driven by human lived experience.

 

00;48;28;23 - 00;49;03;14

CHAD

And you don't get that when you structure work in an AI environment. AI is fantastic to be able to refine some of the work you're doing to maybe gather some of the information, some of those facts, benefits, features, things you want to plug in to your messaging. But it really is not the starting point. And what's happened is I think that a lot of, especially writers in the freelance world, are getting very timid, very scared of AI, because if we're going to be honest, if we look at the brunt of messaging that's crafted by writers, especially in the freelance world right now, blogs and SEO content, I can do a pretty good job at that,

 

00;49;03;19 - 00;49;21;14

CHAD

especially the core mechanics of what you need to do to be able to assemble a blog, to be able to show up with SEO content. What it doesn't do a good job of is falling in that human element. What makes me want to continue reading that blog, to engage with it? What makes me visit that web page and stay on it?

 

00;49;21;16 - 00;49;52;15

CHAD

It might have done what it needs to do to pull me in to get me there initially for organic traffic, but what's keeping me on that page? It's that human element. It's that tone. It's the way things are written. So AI, in and of itself, does a pretty good job at that baseline messaging. What makes a difference is a seasoned story, a seasoned writer, someone with lived experience who understands your audience or audiences, understands your product, your company, or your service, and can articulate in a way that goes beyond just a recitation of facts, figures, benefits, and features.

 

00;49;52;22 - 00;50;16;23

CHAD

It's humanizing it, and that will always be driven by emotion and by lived experience. And that's the differentiator between what I can provide and what a human can actually write and communicate. 

 

JEN
I think we're also like just past that the peak of AI freak out, right? I think everybody was like, oh my God, the robots are here for our jobs.

 

00;50;16;26 - 00;50;49;19

JEN

The robots are here for some of the jobs, for sure. and, and as we've said multiple times, often the ones that can be automated or, you know, don't take a lot of skill. But I do think just with some recent developments in the AI industry, the way it's really come to light, how non factual AI can be sometimes, that we're starting to settle into this rhythm of how AI fits into to our daily lives, not just from an agency perspective, but across multiple industries.

 

00;50;49;19 - 00;51;06;26

JEN

So, I think it's starting to get more comfortable for a lot of people. 

 

RYAN

Yeah. Anyone who uses a Google search is probably seen, some AI at the top of their at the top of their Google feed. And we've learned, like Jen said, not always the most factual. It's compiling a lot of information and you can game the system.

 

00;51;06;26 - 00;51;23;26

RYAN

And that's how when you're asking how to get cheese to stick to a pizza, the Google I just tells you to put glue on it. Easiest. Just put some glue on it. That's how you get the sticky cheese. 

 

JEN

Oh, I didn't think of that myself, honestly. 

 

RYAN
So that's it for another episode of Think Fresh. Chad, thank you so much for joining us today.

 

00;51;23;26 - 00;51;42;11

RYAN

How is your first experience on the pod? 

 

CHAD
It was more than I imagined, and so it was a magical moment, and I'm happy that we were able to base an entire conversation around why messaging matters made my day. 

 

RYAN

Yes. Thank you for joining us, Chad, and for sharing your insights and a little bit of, a peek behind the curtain of how you do what you do and tell such beautiful stories.

 

00;51;42;14 - 00;52;01;19

RYAN

It's it's really interesting to see how the power of storytelling can marry two of my passions - sports. I'm I'm a big sports guy. You all know that, as of one month ago, And barf. 

 

JEN
Well, I don't think we need to go any further with that topic, so that's a wrap. Thanks, Chad, so much for joining us and taking a little bit of pressure off my voice today.

 

00;52;01;19 - 00;52;23;23

JEN

It was so great having you on the podcast. 

 

JEN

Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Think Fresh. 

 

RYAN
And remember, the conversation does not have to end here. If you liked what you heard today, be sure to follow us on Facebook, LinkedIn, or Instagram. Review our show on whatever you listen to your podcast on, or share all your marketing trials and triumphs by shooting us an email at info at.

 

00;52;23;23 - 00;52;43;02

RYAN

Think de novo.com with the subject line dear de novo so we don't miss it. 

 

JEN
And while you wait eagerly for our next episode, you can get your fix by checking out our blog, Fresh Thinking at blogdot. Think de novo.com. Stay tuned for more engaging conversations, laughs, and of course, marketing brilliance and be making fun of Ryan in the next episodes to come.

 

00;52;43;03 - 00;52;50;27

RYAN

Here's to fresh thinking, sparking creativity, and never being boring. Bye friends.

 

00;52;50;29 - 00;52;53;28

JEN

Are we swearing on this or no?





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